Is Rin's Eclipse (H-)scene (Beginners) in Fate/hollow ataraxia canon?
I'd like to know if it follows Rin's true ending. Just to make it clear, I'm not asking if FHA follows UBW, I'm asking if that H-scene follows UBW True End (or maybe Good End).
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Spoilers regarding the H-scenes ahead
I take it it appears too good to be true for you. Now, is it canon? Nasu did confirm it as such.
If I had to state my opinion I'd say as a whole Rin's scene does seem very reasonable just like the other eclipse scenes. If something, I'd add that the competition part (they fight to win over who pleasures the other more; Shirou becoming even a bit cruel and unlike himself whe he tells her at the beginning to touch herself while he watches), Rin using her magic to make her weight disappear even when orgasming and the use of apphrodisiacs may be more like fanservice, but then again it is an eroge and since the very beginning Nasu made Shirou unable to give mana but through sex because he has no magical knowledge. You can't get more porn vibes than that. Think that Rin becoming more feminine, enjoying herself with Shirou and starting to accept her feelings a bit more is what makes sense after the UBW route.
I was the first one to reply this question and now there are 5 other answers (there are 6 counting mine as of now, from кяαzєя, Memor, Lord, Echomateria, Dumpster Player and myself). I don't agree with some statements from кяαzєя as I showed in my comments to his answer. After reading all the answers I have more reasons to believe it does happen after UBW. Some of the arguments given in other answers are that the eclipse scenes are canon as I had said in my original post, that they don't belong to Fate Hollow's actual game but are instead set up to be a direct continuation of some of the original game endings... And it's true. They don't belong to the storyline followed by Fate Hollow and it's also true they've been composed to follow Fate Stay Night endings. It does make sense for them to be a continuation as their canonicity has been established by the game authors. Pretty much everyone defend this point of view (Echomateria, Memor, Lord and myself outright defend this point of view).
About Hollow's true ending, which happens outside the time loop, Memor and Dumpster didn't touch this topic as it wasn't asked by the OP. I would completely agree with Echomateria and Lord's answer in that regard though a. As echomateria said in his answer it would be an alternate reality, just like each route is an alternate reality from each other. So basically it would be another route made by Nasu. According to the creators an scenario also exists where it is actually the sequel to Stay Night. This was actually treated in more detail by Lord in his answer. When Takeuchi was asked whether Hollow is the continution of all 3 routes his conclusion was that the reader should interpret it however he wants, so either way.
You misunderstand what Fate/hollow ataraxia actually is. It is not a direct continuation of Fate/stay night. It encompasses the endings of all of the routes, while at the same time not being any of them. Despite all that has happened in Fate/stay night, the story starts from a situation where everyone, plus extra characters and minus a certain character, is present with nobody thinks thinking unusual, except Shirou (the plot elaborates on why this is the case). It's mentioned that Fate/hollow ataraxia not appear to follow a particular route from Fate/stay night, and that it was written in a non-serious manner.
From an interview with Takeuchi and Nasu in Toradayo 61, Jan 2006, mentions:
Q: So, should it be best to think that Fate/hollow ataraxia isn’t a continuation of the Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heavens Feel arcs of the last game?
Takeuchi: Yes. It's not really what happens after each route, but more of a "counter" to "Fate/stay night" itself… is what feels more comfortable right now, I think. While there is a setting about this happening after this route, personally, I don’t think it's that important. Basically, I think the player should interpret it however he wants.
Nasu: I personally wrote "Reunion", the introductory portion of Fate/hollow ataraxia with the intention of it being the ending of a certain route in Fate/stay night and the ending of "hollow ataraxia".
He also mentioned that "it's best if you don't think too much about it," (Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Miscellaneous, p.136) when questioned about its place in the timeline.
All Fate/stay night routes and Fate/hollow ataraxia happen in alternative universes of sorts. That's how Nasu's multiverse works – it's made up of several alternative sub-universes, so even mutually exclusive routes are all "true" or canon.
However, if you make an attempt to connect the dots, there is a route that fits (as noted in the above interview) with the storyline of the plot of Fate/hollow ataraxia and meets all the requirements to completely make this possible, but that's for another topic.
I'm gonna express my opinion regarding the OP question. I will explain where I got got my info and how I came upon my conclusion. My opinion based on Nasu and Takeuchi's words is that it can be considered a sequel to the original game if the reader wants it and therefore so would the eclipse scenes. I will also add a theory at the end of my post and it will be based on the way the eclipse scenes are set, my experience reading 100% of the Visual Novel and Nasu's answer to the first question.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Fate/hollow_ataraxia (at the end of the page you can see Nasu and Takeuchi expressing their opinion regarding Fate Hollow). I will use quotes of that.
Fate Hollow Ataraxia was sold back in the day as a sequel and even the true ending, now outside the loop, is called "sequel".
I side with Sanji's opinion in this regard. After reading the whole interview there's no question they don't deny it. The first question the interviwer makes is whether hollow is the after story or not. Nasu's answer was: "We mentioned it a little bit earlier, but “hollow” is set in Fuyuki city half a year after Fate/stay night. But despite that, the story’s starting from a situation where everyone, + some extra people and minus a certain character, is present and nobody thinks that’s unusual."
I believe it's normal he'd say that, after all he's describing the time-loop. But even so he finishes saying "but we believe it should be left up to the user’s imagination"
The second question is "So, should it be best to think that Fate/hollow ataraxia isn’t a continuation of the Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, and Heavens Feel arcs of the last game?"
Takeuchi's answer is quite vague:"It’s not really what happens after each route, but more of a “counter” to “Fate/stay night” itself…..is what feels more comfortable right now... Basically, I think the player should interpret it however he wants."
Saying "is what feels confortable right now isn't a compelling argument". In the end he says the reader decides, just like Nasu.
The third question is yet again a similar version of the others: "Is it safe to assume that Hollow's "Sequel" follows none of the three routes’ endings in Fate/stay night? (meaning a parallel universe with different possibilities)" The answer Nasu gives: "It’s best if you don’t think too much about it".
What I see is that both of them arrive at the same conclusion, the reader decides, and want to leave it at that.
Once the characters get out of the loophole, if you like the ending your headcanon becomes canon because the authors say so. So the true ending of Fate Hollow would become the sequel to Fate Stay Night.
If you don't like it, then don't worry. The original story remains untouched and Ataraxia is either a fourth route or the ending to one of the original routes.
It might seem vague, but if both of them literally tell the reader to interpret it however he wants it's impossible to have a clear asnwer. They make canon both interpretations in a very straightforward manner.
About the interpretation it was written in a non-serious manner given by кяαzєя It is based on the answer "It’s best if you don’t think too much about it"
No matter how I look at it, the only thing I see is the interviewer wanting a clear answer. It is the third time a very similar question is asked and this time Nasu makes it stop saying "dont think too much about it", which makes sense given his previous replies. Nasu knows they gave 2 vague replies the previous times "it will be up to the user" and he just sticks to it.
Another reason why I'm sure it's this way is that it would have been very easy to just say yes to the last question, saying it is another universe like he does with many of his works (Unlimited Blade Works, Prisma Illya, Fate Extra...).
In my opinion him not saying that would mean we are in the same universe and the reader can consider it a sequel to FSN if he wants to as they say. I'd also say Nasu actually gives a lot of credit to this work, which is btw is 2/3 of the original visual novel's size.
Nonetheless, I do believe, based on the way the eclipse scenes are set and my experience reading 100% of the Visual Novel and Nasu's words that there is better way to think Rin's eclipse scene happens after UBW.
If you finished reading the Visual Novel you must have realized the eclipse scenes take place outside the proper game. They're set up exactly to continue each route. In Rin's case, Shirou describes their previous time making love and past experiences in UBW. Rider would be Heaven's Feel, so would Sakura...
Nasu said " We mentioned it a little bit earlier, but “hollow” is set in Fuyuki city half a year after Fate/stay night. But despite that, the story’s starting from a situation where everyone, + some extra people and minus a certain character, is present and nobody thinks that’s unusual. While Shirou, the protagonist thinks this is weird, he can’t figure out what exactly is unusual. He’s in that kind of unstable situation, but he’s genuinely enjoying the “festivities” feeling that it’s great how everyone’s around".
Nevertheless, these scenes don't belong to that description and they're clearly staged after each route. They don't belong to the actual plot of the game. Nasu confirmed them as canon so I don't have any reason to believe they don't really happen after each route. In my opinion they're like a bonus.
It's not something very relevant but Memor said in a thread things like the fact that it is confirmed Rider-Shirou because of the love confession in her eclipse scene, not a very far-fetched comment considering Nasu said those scenes are canon.I would agree with him. So yes, in my opinion Rin's scene is canon and would take place after UBW. Or at the very least the authors tell you can interpret it that way.
To answer your question let's start with the question ¿What's Fate Hollow Ataraxia?
Fate Hollow is an alternate reality, just like each route is an alternate reality of each other. You can basically consider it the fourth route to the original game.
The reasons why it is called a sequel by many people are:
Because the authors say an scenario exists where it is actually a direct continuation. If they say so there must be some truth behind it.
I'm gonna make an example to make it more clear: The thing is that Rin develops a new kind of magic. This was explained a little at the end of FSN. This magic allows travel between dimensions and therefore routes. The example would be a hand that picks 2 girls and throws them to a new dimension/route. One girl is Sakura, who is picked from after the war HF. The other is Rin, from after the war UBW. So, do we have different route? Yes, but Sakura comes from Heaven's Feel ending so her actions in Ataraxia reflect what she would do in her own route under certain circumstances. The same for Rin. This second point is a reason to consider it kinda a sequel.
The eclipse/hentai scenes are quite different though from the actual game. They aren't part of Fate Hollow Ataraxia. They really are a fully-fledged continuations of the original game endings as they are written to literally continue them. They are something like a plus and are clearly written to continue FSN endings. Nasu made a confirmation of them being canon. If we add the fact that they aren't part of the actual Ataraxia game and that they follow endings from the original game it would make zero sense to not consider them their continuation.
The eclipse scene begginers that you ask about references Rin and Shirou's sexual activities in UBW between other stuff. What Nasu is telling us is that their sex is going well, unlike in the original game. Nothing to worry about.
Sakura's scene happens after Heaven's Feel.
Saber's scene golden bathtub most likely happens after UBW good ending. It can't be the fate route as the first time Shirou and Saber have sex alone is the night before she dies, where he was so nervous he didn't even know what to do. There aren't more times to have sex as she dies afterwards. Saber in Fate Hollow comes from UBW good ending. The way the H-scene occurs makes it seem they're not in a formal relationship (having sex sometimes is what their relationship seems to be about) and that Saber is fine and isn't gonna die. It shouldn't come as a surprise though. In UBW Good ending Nasu hints strongly Shirou is gonna have sex with Saber. Some hints are that Shirou's magical energy (semen) is needed to maintain saber as Rin's energy isn't enough, Saber says in the VN she's staying for him, Rin tells saber not to flirt with him and to stop looking at each other for so long. Basically one of the typical harem endings in a porn game. We don't know if Rin and Saber have sex in Unlimited good ending as nothing is ever hinted/mentioned in either the eclipse scenes or the game itself that may point out they ever have a sexual relationship over there. Also, Rin provides magic to Saber thanks to her link and no sex is needed as she's an experienced magi.
The Rider scene happens after HF. Basically it is revealed that Rider falls in love with Shirou and likes meeting him to have sex with him. In her eclipse scene she confesses she loves him. Rider says she thinks about him when she's alone but she feels bad about Sakura.
Is it something new? Not really, we just got a confirmation of what we already knew. Remember when Rider said she is sucking regularly someone's blood and that she can't let Sakura Know? That is mentioned somewhere at the end of Heaven's Feel in the original game. She thought that after 2 years living together with Shirou and Sakura. They're the only ones living together in the Emiya house (Rin lives in London). So it has to be Shirou as she thinks Sakura must not know. And how does Rider suck blood? She just bites you unless you're Shirou. In Heaven's Feel Route She finds Shirou so juicy she has sex with him as well. The rest of the people just got the bite.
My final conclusion: I've based my answer on a few facts. We know that the eclipse/hentai scenes aren't part of Fate Hollow Ataraxia's actual game. We know that they were confirmed as canon by the authors. We also know that they are written to continue certain endings from the original game. Final conclusion: To me it would make zero sense for them not to be their direct continuation.
It's not stated to be, but you can pretend it is a continuation of the UBW True End. It's shown during the scene where Rin got trapped in the Second Magic Chest that in at least one alternative universe where Rin and Shirou are lovers, Rin actually dropped her tsun completely and is head over heels in love with Shirou to the point where she sounds like one of those sickening sweet lovebirds.
I believe it is because Fate/Hollow Ataraxia is in a way very similar to another Type-Moon game and that's Kagetsu Tohya
like Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, Kagetsu Tohya is the "sequal" game to a Type-Moon game, Tsukihime, which has 5 Routes with about 2 proper endings (as opposed to dead end/game over endings) for each one. like Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, Kagetsu Tohya is set in a looped world where after the story progresses so much time (in Kagetsu Tohya it's 1 day) or Tohno Shiki is killed everything restarts.
They also both features bonus scenes which do not occur in the space of the main game. in Kagetsu Tohya these are called Ten Nights of Dream, quoting the link these are
The first seven of these stories were written by Kinoko Nasu like the rest of Kagetsu Tohya, while the last three are contribution works by others, essentially fanfiction. It is unknown if any of these stories are to be considered canon.
- Good luck, Ciel-sensei
- Ciel teaches the rest of the cast in her role as Ciel-sensei from Tsukihime. The story is mainly a comedy story, reflecting on parts of the series in the form of questions.
- A Story for the Evening
- Akiha solves a mystery in her boarding school. This story is a sequel to her true ending in Tsukihime.
- Crimson Moon
- A look at Arcueid's history as a True Ancestor, and her first fateful meeting with Roa. This story has Roa as the protagonist and shows him in less of an antagonistic light.
- Red Demon God
- The story of Shiki's father Kiri Nanaya. This story reveals much about the Nanaya family and the Demon Hunter Organization that they are connected with.
- Nanako-chan SOS
- Nanako (the spirit of the Seventh Holy Scripture) escapes from Ciel and hides out at Arihiko's place. This story has Arihiko as the protagonist and reveals how he and Shiki met in the past.
- A parody of the horror game Otogirisou starring Shiki, Akiha, Hisui and Kohaku.
- Flower of Thanatos
- Erotic story that takes place in an artificial dream world where Shiki, Kohaku and Hisui live in the isolated Tohno mansion.
- Hisui-chan, Inversion Impulse!
- Hisui goes insane with hilarious results. Takes place after Hisui's Good Ending.
- The Tohno Family Con Game
- Nearly the whole cast plays an elaborate game of tag for Kohaku's sake.
- Dawn (or Daybreak)
- The continued story of the girl that gets devoured in the park by Nrvnqsr Chaos in Tsukihime. Takes place after Arcueid's Good Ending.
As you can see a number of these stories follow particular endings, for instnace A Story for the Evening follows Akiha's True end because
at the end Akiha recives a letter from Ciel saying that Shiki didn't die when he killed himself in Akiha's True End and saved him. Akiha is annoyed by this because it was Ceil who saved Shiki and not her
My belief that Beginners (the name of the scene as indicated here) is after the Unlimited Blade Works Route is becaue the same page i linked to says
Shirou is stranded at Rin's home during a rainy day. Both alone in an empty house they decide to remedy their previous sexual failures and make progress in their relationship.
if i recall what i read about the H Scene in the original Fate/Stay Night at the end Rin complained that Shirou wasn't gentle and they won't do it again. to me the above quote implies they already have a relationship and what happened in the H Scene in Unlimited Blade Works occured.
However this does not mean that Fate/Hollow Ataraxia is a sequal to Fate/Stay Night's Unlimited Blade Works Route