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When I see lists where they rank most powerful shinobi in Naruto, they generally rank Naruto near the top (usually 1 or 2). These lists generally don't even have Kakashi in the top 25, yet Kakashi is a Jounin, whereas Naruto has NEVER even been able to become a Chunin!

So at what point in the show is it that Naruto surpasses Kakashi?

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    Could you mention the source of the lists? Is it an official list? If it is not official, then they could use any metric to measure their power.
    – Aki Tanaka ♦
    Jul 18, 2017 at 2:42

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This is highly opinion based question. The lists you might be referring to are mostly personal rankings by individuals who are using bias/potential to rank individual Ninjas. For Example, Ina-Shika-Cho may be great in a team, but lose out individually. However, I'll try to answer the question based on canon information only.

Naruto surpassed Kakashi in terms of Raw Strength and power as a Ninja, when he mastered the Wind Style: Rasenshuriken. This is proven by the fact that he defeats a Ninja Kakashi had trouble with in his 2nd attack and pretty much one shots him.

This was an achievement that showcases Naruto's persistence and talent as a Ninja, creating a move that both his Father and Sensei (Kakashi, Jiraiya) couldn't do. He had been moving up the chain for several instances (like defeating Itachi duplicate), but this is the most clear demarkation of his prowess is beating Kakazu 1v1 with his Rasenshuriken. This is further proven by the fact that Kakashi himself said it wondering if Naruto had surpassed him. enter image description here.

Later also Kakashi admits to Naruto, that he might be even stronger than him now. enter image description here

Finally, The moment where everyone acknowledges Naruto's strength and talent is clearly beating Pain. Jiraiya and Kakashi died fighting Pain, while Naruto was able to beat him soundly. This moment, leaves no premise for confusion. So somewhere between Kakuzu and Pain Naruto had surpassed Kakashi!

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    "Naruto surpassed Kakashi in terms of Raw Strength and power as a Ninja, when he mastered the Wind Style: Rasenshuriken" - No... Naruto surpasses Kakashi in raw power since the day he was born, it was all a matter of refining his chakra and being able to use it. He had no power boosts, the chakra was all his. And I never understood all this hype over Naruto with his "Rasenshuriken reveal" - it simply doesn't make sense. Naruto should be nowhere near high-tier Akatsuki level after only learning that one technique.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 17:55
  • Kakuzu fought toe to toe with Shodaime, was smart enough to kind of see through Shikamaru's plans and soloed Kakashi (no MS) and Ino-Shika-Cho, and is the 5th strongest Akatsuki. The only reason why Kakuzu lost was just to showcase naruto's new technique, but in actuality, he should be no where near him in fighting ability. It's pretty ironic that all Naruto talks about is "teamwork" but he literally tells the team to don't worry about it and that he will solo Kakuzu himself... only to be forced to be saved by Yamato and Kakashi.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 18:00
  • Naruto's rasenshuriken reveal was all hype. One jutsu does not make him better than Kakashi, and certainly doesn't make him better than Sasuke. It was only after Sage Mode when Naruto is definitively more valuable in a fight than Kakashi. And this is ALL DISREGARDING how OP Kakashi's Kamui is.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 18:03
  • And if we want to talk about Final Form Double MS Perfect Susanoo Kakashi, then technically Naruto doesn't surpass kakashi (all forms) until he gets six paths power.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 18:05
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    @IknowMoreThanYou Not the place to debate. If you'd read my answer properly, it starts as, "This is highly opinion based question." You're entitled to your opinion as do I. I've tried to answer the question solely on canon points, where we see Kakashi himself wondering if Naruto had "surpassed" him. I would counter each of your points, but comments are not the place for such discussions. You're welcome to improve your answer, by adding your viewpoints there, rather than diss my attempt to answer solely because its not same as yours. Cheers.
    – Arcane
    Jul 18, 2017 at 21:07
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Naruto surpasses kakashi by the pain arc after Naruto learns senjutsu. His genin status is only a rank. You're forgetting that Naruto trained for Jiraiya for three years and missed all the chunin exams in between.

If you really want to argue about Kakashi's Kamui and his Mangekyou Sharingan that he somehow found out about it in Shippuden Naruto is still stronger. His chakra reserves aren't insane.

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  • You're definitely going to want to add sources to this.
    – Makoto
    Jul 18, 2017 at 3:01
  • Add sources that naruto is stronger after the pain arc? I mean there's a reason why he is called the hero of the leaf and not kakashi. Kakashi as a character is pretty weak if u take away his kamui spamming. The whole point behind the fact that sasuke naruto and Sakura train under the three sannin was that they would eventually surpass them. (Obviously jiraiya > kakashi
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 3:18
  • No...I had meant you're going to want to add sources to that exact point in time in which Naruto surpassed Kakashi. Do bear in mind that Kakashi was made Hokage before Naruto, after all...
    – Makoto
    Jul 18, 2017 at 3:19
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    Pretty basic logic: Naruto is able to defeat pain. Kakashi is not. Ergo, at this point Naruto is stronger with his senjutsu. If you really want to argue semantics on how Pain's chakra was drained from destroying the village with his almighty push, you can, but that's a silly argument. After naruto defeats pain, Kakashi himself practically admits naruto surpassed him when naruto is leaning on kakashi's shoulder and is being carried back to the village
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 3:22
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    This is the kind of thing you should add to your answer. I'm not disputing this; I want to to reinforce your answer, is all.
    – Makoto
    Jul 18, 2017 at 3:56
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Yes, Kakashi is a jounin, and yes Naruto didn't make it in the chuunin exam. But you have to remember that these ninja ranks aren't based on power or strength, but on discipline, tactical skill, and most importantly: taking the exams.

After the chuunin exams in the beginning of the story, Naruto leaves the village and was never able to take another exam. After he grows up and comes back to the village, everybody (his schoolmates) is a chuunin and Neji is already a jounin. He just didn't take the exams. I'm pretty sure he was disciplined and trained enough to make it to jounin.

Kakashi might be a genius tactician and skilled in everything ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu BUT he has the chakra content of a small puppy, as seen here, so in the general rank of power, he can't make it very far.

But that's about it, actually. His lack of chakra is his great downfall.

I would actually argue that Naruto surpassed Kakashi right about the beginning of Shippuden. Now, Naruto didn't have control over kyuubi then yet, nor did he have sage mode then BUT STILL, if he could dodge few raikiris (I remember this number being three, but couldn't find sources) that Kakashi is able to produce, he could beat him. At that time, it would be the battle of Naruto's life, but two chakra tails from Kyuubi would probably be able to handle that. If you think that that's too early, go forward a few episodes (40 to 43) and you have Naruto almost killing Orochimaru, that is reportedly stronger than Kakashi.

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  • I don't think you understand how broken kamui is... especially war arc "spam mode" kakashi... if you really think naruto surpasses kakashi in the beginning of shippuden you could not be more lost.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 13:27
  • My point was more in the sense that although he wouldn't be able to fight at Kakashi's level at the beginning of shippuden, he certainly had enough raw power power to beat him. Naruto's four tails against Orochimaru was proof of that. He managed to pierce three Rashömon gates with he's bijuudama, whilst Orochimaru couldn't even break Naruto's skin with Kusanagi. Now, I don't know how much penetration power raikiri has, but it can't be that much more then Kusanagi's (I presume)... And you're over estimating the control Kakashi had over his kamui at that point... Four tails Naruto is quite fast.
    – guilofrano
    Jul 18, 2017 at 14:20
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    SInce the beginning of naruto part 1, actually since naruto was born, naruto had enough "raw power" to take on anyone (meanwhile kakashi's chakra reserves are pitifully low). Your argument that he had the raw power doesn't mean he surpassed kakashi in a battle, per say. The biggest plothole in the entire series surrounds kakashi's kamui and the fact that he didn't even NOTICE that he even had a MS for over 15 YEARS blows my mind. That's why it's hard to power scale kakashi in early Naruto shippuden.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 16:09
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    My argument is that it is definitive after the pain arc that naruto has surpassed kakashi. The reason why kakashi lost to Kakuzu is because that's how kakashi was written as a character. If you look at all the battles Kakashi fights, he usually gets wasted/destroyed just to make his opponent seem good and the show hypes that said character up. Kakuzu is just another example of this fact. But in reality, if Kakashi used his MS, kakuzu would get curbstomped no question.
    – IknowMoreThanYou
    Jul 18, 2017 at 16:11
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    Yeah, when I was searching for a way to quantify Kakashi's chakra reserves, the most common answer is "Kakashi has however much chakra the plot needs him to have". I mentioned his control over the Kamui because it took him a long time to rip off Deidara's arm, but somehow, just a few HOURS after that, he managed to, with not much chakra left and injured, swallow the whole suicide explosion ON THE FLY. Kakashi's power is definitely weird to measure. Maybe it's a ploy to fool the enemies into thinking he can't fight for very long (speculative).
    – guilofrano
    Jul 18, 2017 at 17:04

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